Grand Rounds September 26, 2025: Significance in ePCTs: P Values vs Decision-Maker Perspectives (Gregory E. Simon, MD, MPH; Susan Huang, MD, MPH; Elizabeth Turner, PhD)

Speakers

Gregory E. Simon, MD, MPH
Kaiser Permanente Washington Health Research Institute

Susan Huang, MD, MPH
University of California Irvine

Elizabeth Turner, PhD
Duke University

Keywords

P-Values; Significance; Statistical Analysis; Pragmatic Trials; Decision-Makers

Key Points

  • P-values are a part of the statistical process of hypothesis and significance testing. They quantify of the degree of “surprise” in a finding. The result is dichotomous; a P-value of less than 0.05 is considered statistically significant, while a P-value greater than or equal to 0.05 is not.
  • 0.05 is a useful but somewhat arbitrary cutoff. It was probably first described in Statistical Methods for Medical Workers by R. A. Fisher: “It is convenient to take this point as a limit in judging whether a deviation is to be considered significant or not.” According to an anecdote shared by Fisher’s daughter, he identified the cutoff as “convincing enough” based on an informal experiment with a colleague.
  • Using a single threshold to determine significance can be problematic in real-world settings. Healthcare decisionmakers are seeking solutions to multi-dimensional problems, and they care about subgroups. Dr. Huang illustrated this point with an overview of ABATE Infection trial and her team’s subsequent collaboration with decision-makers.
  • ABATE Infection was a pragmatic, cluster-randomized trial assessing universal decolonization in non-ICUs. While decolonization wasn’t effective for all non-ICU patients, a post-hoc analysis found that the intervention was highly effective in patients with medical devices. This finding was practically significant and was included in national guidance around decolonization.
  • In a cost-effectiveness analysis of universal, targeted, or no decolonization for patients with medical devices, the ABATE team found that the optimal outcome was dependent on site circumstances, i.e. prevalence of device use, adherence to targeted decolonization, and financial penalties for bloodstream infection.
  • For years, experts have questioned the reliance on P-values. On the other hand, there are concerns that rejecting “H1 – H0” could prove to be a slippery slope to data dredging and “post-hoc chicanery.”
  • The dogma of the P-value may be more applicable to a clinical trial setting than to a pragmatic setting. Establishing the standard of care requires a high level of certainty. Scientific rigor demands rules and a threshold that isn’t affected by cost.
  • In hospitals, clinical decisions are rarely based on certainty; safe interventions that are low-cost and have a possible benefit are given more consideration. Decision-makers should understand the probability of benefit at a given P-value; circumstances may warrant adoption.
  • In pragmatic trials, valuable information may include the intervention effect size, the effect for various outcomes and on various subgroups, and information pertinent to implementation: fidelity, reach, cost, etc.
  • Decision-making is complex and multidimensional. What is important may depend on context, audience, or other situational factors. While P-values can be useful in decision-making, they aren’t the only piece of the puzzle.

Discussion Themes

Changing the reliance on P-values would require a multi-pronged, multi-dimensional approach; sponsors, journals, and other stakeholders each uphold the use of P-values for various reasons. Perhaps the best way to start integrating this perspective shift into the clinical trials ecosystem is to hold the line, routinely seeking and providing information about a variety of outcomes and confidence levels.

If we hold that the underlying but unknown truth is fixed, then our process for arriving at conclusions regarding a treatment’s effectiveness (or whether the treatment has a favorable benefit-risk profile) inherently has important operating characteristics, such as the Type I error rate. If we move away from P-values, we will need to define a design approach that considers these operating characteristics.

Maybe it’s more practical to think about honing into a standard of care as an iterative process, in the way that human learning is an iterative process; to state that we know something to some degree of certainty, then modify, refine, and get closer to defining these truths.

September 24, 2025: P Values vs Decision-Maker Perspectives, in This Week’s Rethinking Clinical Trials Grand Rounds

In a special session of Rethinking Clinical Trials Grand Rounds on September 26, longtime leaders from the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory will present “Significance in Pragmatic Clinical Trials: P Values vs Decision-Maker Perspectives.”

The Grand Rounds session will be held on Friday, September 26, 2025, at 1:00 pm eastern.

Greg Simon is a senior investigator at the Kaiser Permanente Washington Health Research Institute, a member of the NIH Collaboratory leadership team, and a cochair of the NIH Collaboratory’s Health Care Systems Interactions Core. Susan Huang is a Chancellor’s Professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at the UC Irvine School of Medicine and the medical director of epidemiology and infection prevention at UCI Health. She was the principal investigator for ABATE Infection, an NIH Collaboratory Trial. Liz Turner is an associate professor of biostatistics and bioinformatics and global health at Duke University and a cochair of the NIH Collaboratory’s Biostatistics and Study Design Core.

Join the online meeting.

September 23, 2025: New Podcast Episode Considers “Gray Area” Between Intervention and Return of Results

In a new episode of the Rethinking Clinical Trials Podcast, Greg Simon and Lorella Palazzo discuss key takeaways from the new End-of-Trial Decision-Making chapter of the Living Textbook.

Listen to the podcast. For alerts about new episodes, subscribe for free on Spotify, Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or SoundCloud.

The chapter provides guidance on how to navigate the hiatus between the end of an intervention and the return of effectiveness results.

“It’s especially relevant to pragmatic trials since there’s often a long period between when the trial activities officially end and when the results are known. What do you do in the meantime?” Simon said.

“And spoiler alert, life is lived in the meantime. Most decisions in healthcare are made in a time of uncertainty.”

The chapter was developed by Greg Simon, Lorella Palazzo, and Rachel Hays. Simon is a senior investigator at the Kaiser Permanente Washington Health Research Institute (KPWHRI) and a professor in the Department of Health Systems Science at the Kaiser Permanente Bernard J. Tyson School of Medicine. He is a longtime member of the Coordinating Center leadership team for the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory and the chair of the Health Care Systems Interaction Core. Palazzo is a senior collaborative scientist at KPWHRI and a research associate with the Health Care Systems Interactions Core.

Podcast September 17, 2025: End-of-Trial Decision-Making (Greg Simon, MD, MPH; Lorella Palazzo, PhD)

In this episode of the NIH Collaboratory podcast, Drs. Greg Simon and Lorella Palazzo discuss their recent Living Textbook Chapter, “End-of-Trial Decision-Making.”

Read the transcript. For alerts about new episodes, subscribe for free on Spotify, Amazon Music, Apple Podcasts, or SoundCloud.

September 8, 2025: P Values vs Decision-Maker Perspectives, in a Special Grand Rounds Session on September 26

In a special session of Rethinking Clinical Trials Grand Rounds on September 26, longtime leaders from the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory will present “Significance in Pragmatic Clinical Trials: P Values vs Decision-Maker Perspectives.”

The Grand Rounds session will be held on Friday, September 26, 2025, at 1:00 pm eastern.

Greg Simon is a senior investigator at the Kaiser Permanente Washington Health Research Institute, a member of the NIH Collaboratory leadership team, and a cochair of the NIH Collaboratory’s Health Care Systems Interactions Core. Susan Huang is a Chancellor’s Professor in the Division of Infectious Diseases at the UC Irvine School of Medicine and the medical director of epidemiology and infection prevention at UCI Health. She was the principal investigator for ABATE Infection, an NIH Collaboratory Trial. Liz Turner is an associate professor of biostatistics and bioinformatics and global health at Duke University and a cochair of the NIH Collaboratory’s Biostatistics and Study Design Core.

Join the online meeting.

 

July 10, 2025: Researchers Consider the P Value’s Usefulness in Healthcare Systems Research

The P value is a statistic frequently used in biomedical research for the presentation of study findings. It represents a dichotomous decision about whether a finding is “statistically significant” based on a predetermined level, typically  < .05.

Although the peer-reviewed journals in which researchers aspire to publish their work are anchored to P values, the information used to drive decisions in healthcare is not. At the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory’s 2025 Annual Steering Committee Meeting, a panel led by Greg Simon, leader of the Health Care Systems Interactions Core, discussed P values versus decision-maker perspectives.

Communities, partners, and healthcare systems leaders make decisions based on many, multidimensional factors.

“We care about health outcomes, but we also we care about cost and the satisfaction of members, patients, and employees. Any attempt to roll those up into one statistic is really problematic,” Simon said.

Key Takeaways

  • Where possible, measure and report on what is meaningful to partners, including effect sizes, confidence intervals, cost, and patient and employee satisfaction.
  • Recognize that that P values are a useful metric, but they are only one piece of a larger toolbox.
  • Understand that what is important depends on context, the audience, and local and national priorities.

The panelists included Corita Grudzen, co–principal investigator for the PRIM-ER trial; Rich Platt, co-lead of the NIH Collaboratory’s Distributed Research Network; and Liz Turner, colead of the Biostatistics and Study Design Core.

This summer, we are sharing highlights from the 2025 Annual Steering Committee Meeting.  Access the complete collection of meeting materials.

July 1, 2025: As Their Studies Wrap Up, Researchers Share Lessons for Pragmatic Trials

Headshots of Drs. Christine Goertz, Andrea Cook, Shruti Gohil, and Stacy SterlingA key feature of the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory is its culture of learning and knowledge sharing among investigators who are planning and conducting pragmatic clinical trials. In a session at the program’s 2025 Annual Steering Committee Meeting, a panel of investigators discussed their recently completed NIH Collaboratory Trials and their thoughts about future directions for pragmatic research.

The panelists included Andrea Cook, co–principal investigator (PI) for BackInAction; Shruti Gohil, lead investigator for INSPIRE; and Stacy Sterling, co-PI for GGC4H. Christine Goertz, a co-PI for IMPACt-LBP, moderated the discussion.

Key Takeaways

What do investigators wish they had known before starting a pragmatic trial? Sterling highlighted a need for ongoing engagement with partnering healthcare systems’ senior leaders to ensure they understand the challenges of adopting and sustaining the study intervention. Cook stressed the importance of educating site personnel about what it means to participate in the trial, including the potential for randomization to a usual care arm.

“We also included nonphysician clinicians in the education about the intervention, because they are often doing the steps being targeted by the intervention,” Gohil added.

How can we apply these lessons in future pragmatic trials? “Doing an embedded pragmatic trial is sort of like having a child: You really need the guidance of people who have gone before you and have real-life experience,” Goertz said.

The panelists proposed the development of more standardized materials for the consent process and other trial elements. They also discussed the need for broader dissemination strategies and new ways to promote implementation tools from trials with successful interventions.

Gohil described her research team’s commitment to developing a dissemination toolkit so people will understand how to approach implementation. She noted that, as soon as the trial was completed but before publication, the research team presented the results to the participating sites.

Greg Simon, the PI for SPOT and a member of the NIH Collaboratory Coordinating Center’s leadership team, stressed the importance of including research partners in dissemination.

“Don’t write the discussion section [of your study results paper] until you’ve talked with your healthcare system partners; they might have something to teach us about what the results mean,” he said.

About the Trials

  • BackInAction, supported by the National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH), is comparing standard and advanced courses of acupuncture with usual care for older adults with chronic low back pain.
  • GGC4H, supported by NCCIH, is testing the feasibility and effectiveness of implementing within healthcare systems the Guiding Good Choices program for caregivers of early adolescents to prevent common behavioral problems, such as substance use.
  • IMPACt-LBP, supported by NCCIH, is evaluating the effect of first-contact patient referral to physical therapists and doctors of chiropractic for low back pain.
  • INSPIRE, supported by the National Institute of Allergy and Infectious Diseases, used personalized clinical decision support to improve judicious antibiotic prescribing for non–critically ill patients hospitalized with abdominal infections or skin and soft tissue infections.
  • SPOT, supported by the National Institute of Mental Health, compared care management and dialectical behavior therapy skills training to usual care for adults at risk of self-harm or suicidal behavior.

This summer, we are sharing highlights from the 2025 Annual Steering Committee Meeting. Access the complete collection of meeting materials.

June 26, 2025: New Podcast Episode Considers How to Make Pragmatic Trials More Pragmatic

Drs. Rich Platt, Greg Simon, and Hayden BosworthIn a new episode of the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory Podcast, Rich Platt, Hayden Bosworth, and Greg Simon of the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory discuss their JAMA Viewpoint, “Making Pragmatic Clinical Trials More Pragmatic.”

Listen and subscribe to the podcast on SoundCloud or Apple Podcasts.

In the Viewpoint, the authors propose solutions to the discordance between the results of pragmatic trials and the implementation of those results in healthcare settings.

“I think one of the problems with our evidence generating process is that we may think that our
customers are grant review panels or maybe journal editors,” Platt notes in the podcast. “Those may be our short-term customers, but those are not our ultimate customers. Our ultimate customers are people who have to make decisions about healthcare,” he added.

February 13, 2025: HCSRN Extends Early-Bird Registration Deadline for 2025 Annual Conference

Logo for the HSCRN 2025 Annual ConferenceThe Health Care Systems Research Network (HCSRN) extended the early-bird registration deadline for its 2025 Annual Conference to February 28. The conference will be held from April 8 to 10 in St. Louis, Missouri.

The theme of this year’s conference is “Optimizing Collaborations to Advance Health In a Dynamic Research Landscape.” The conference will provide networking opportunities to spur collaboration on research initiatives that improve health and healthcare for individuals and populations, as well as showcase scientific findings from learning health systems research projects.

A preconference grant writing workshop will bring together experts from throughout HCSRN to assist early investigators with NIH R series applications. Workshop participants will learn how to write compelling specific aims, tell a story, and create a conceptual model.

This year’s opening plenary session will feature keynote speaker Sandro Galea, the Margaret C. Ryan Dean of the School of Public Health and the Eugene S. and Constance Kahn Distinguished Professor in Public Health at Washington University in St. Louis. Galea’s keynote presentation will ask the question “why health?” and address the essentials of what it means to be healthy and to promote health in populations.

Also at this year’s conference, Greg Simon, a longtime member of the Coordinating Center leadership team for the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory, will receive the organization’s inaugural Founders’ Award.

The HCSRN is a research network focused on supporting research institutes aligned with healthcare delivery systems. The HCSRN’s mission is to improve individual and population health through research that connects the resources and capabilities of learning healthcare systems.

Visit the conference website for registration and more information.

November 19, 2024: NIH Collaboratory’s Greg Simon to Receive Inaugural HCSRN Founders’ Award

Headshot of Dr. Greg Simon
Dr. Greg Simon

Greg Simon, a longtime member of the Coordinating Center leadership team for the NIH Pragmatic Trials Collaboratory, was selected by the Health Care Systems Research Network (HCSRN) Governing Board of Directors to receive the organization’s inaugural Founders’ Award. The new award recognizes individuals who best exemplify the spirit of the HCSRN’s early founders in their service and lasting contributions to the network.

The HCSRN is a research network focused on supporting research institutes aligned with healthcare delivery systems.

Greg Simon, MD, MPH, Senior Investigator, Kaiser Permanente Washington Health Research Institute, was selected by the HCSRN Governing Board of Directors to receive the inaugural award. As you may know, Dr. Simon is a psychiatrist recognized for his extensive research on practical approaches to improving mental health care. He leads the Mental Health Research Network (MHRN), a consortium of research centers affiliated with 13 large health systems across the United States, including Kaiser Permanente Washington, among his many other accomplishments.

Simon will receive the award at the HCSRN 2025 Annual Conference in Saint Louis in April.

The HCSRN is accepting abstract submissions and panel proposals for its annual conference until December 9. Information about conference registration, preconference workshops, and accommodations is also available. Early-bird registration is open through February 21.